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« Eschatology--not a dirty word anymore... | Main | Nothing but the blood? »

March 20, 2005

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zalm

just the other night, i finally had the chance to read the excerpt from books & culture that you pointed to a few weeks go, and i found it inspiring and intriguing.

my favorite line (among many): "When the Bible is viewed primarily as a collection of devotional thoughts, its status as the most devastating work of social criticism is forgotten."

i don't know if i have time to add this to my book list at the moment, but i hope to soon. in the meantime, i'm glad to see that you've started the book and will continue to write about it. i look forward to your thoughts in the future.

Wasp Jerky

"Just because we as Christians have the Bible to refer to as truth, it doesn’t mean we should wield it as a weapon."

I agree, but isn't it funny how often the metaphor of a sword is used by Christians when describing the Bible?

zalm

good point, kevin. we get hit with that image pretty early, too. i remember "sword drills" in sunday school class to see who could find a passage the fastest.

to be fair, though, ephesians 6 and hebrews 4 do make the "word of god" / "sword" metaphor for us. so it's not like we pull it out of thin air.

then again, ephesians 6 also makes it clear that the "battle" the sword is intended for isn't "against flesh and blood." and the hebrews passage suggests that the sword is intended to penetrate and judge our innermost "thoughts and attitudes of the heart." so if we use these passages to justify wielding the bible as a weapon to use against others, i agree that we're misunderstanding the metaphor.

Natalie

zalm, I'll try not to spoil it for when you get around to reading the book, although so far there is just a lot of good stuff, so even if I write about it a lot, I'm not going to cover it all!

Wasp Jerky

Wow. I haven't thought about sword drills in soooo long. We used to do those at church, too.

I think you're right, Zalm. I just find it really interesting how often Christians use war and violence as metaphor. (There's also "Onward Christian Soldiers," "The Battle Hymn of the Republic," etc.) It is justified biblically. But a lot of Christians seem to really love violence. It's almost like they're living vicariously or something.

I think you can also tie it in to end times philosophy. Is it a coincidence that so many Christians who are so rabid for U.S. military might are also Left Behinders who believe that Jesus is going to come riding a white horse, killing heathens as he goes? It's like some Christians can't wait to A) be proven right and B) slaughter all those people who have been "persecuting" them for so long.

Streak

"“To view truthfulness not as a boasting point we have over others but as a standard that judges all our talk, is to recognize oneself as a partaker of common humanity humbly bound to the common good of attempted truthfulness” (xi)."

That is my favorite line so far. Thanks for writing about this book. It definately sounds like one I need to read when I finish the other 27 on my list! :) May need to jump this one up the line.

adam

“to inherit a militant ignorance that confuses anger for strength of character or the momentary silencing of somebody else with victory”

If I had nickel for everytime. . .

Shawn

Nat,
Thanks for posting more Dark quotes (that has a certain ring to it , doesn't it). It sounds like excellent stuff.

Zalm and Kevin,
We have to remember that when the sword references were made that are in the Bible, there actually was no Bible, except for old testament books, etc.. Therefore Paul didn't necessarily have to be talking about the Bible when referred to the sword of truth. In addition, there are actually probably more gardener type references in the bible than sword and warrior references. I think the Gardener analogies are more fitting. And, by the way, some of those old Christian war hymns really freak me out.

jvpastor

Shawn:
"I think the Gardener analogies are more fitting. And, by the way, some of those old Christian war hymns really freak me out."

Onward Christian Soldiers marching as to war with the Cross of Jesus going on before? Was this written for the crusades:)

zalm

shawn,

point well taken about paul not having the bible as we know it. but the "word of the lord" still seems to have pretty scriptural overtones, even if it only referred to the hebrew scriptures. i'll admit that i haven't studied those passages enough to know what else paul could have been referring to, unless it was also the teachings of jesus.

and those hymns freak me out as well. although i'm ashamed to admit that "onward christian soldiers" was one of my favorite hymns when i was a wee one. one of my very first posts dealt with songs like this one and "i'm in the lord's army," which is just as freaky since it's for kids.

actually, for that matter, "onward christian soldiers" was written for kids, too. it wasn't for the crusades, though, although you're right that it sure sounds like it.

Leighton

The set of pre-NT books that were held canonical by early Christians varied from group to group, even among what are now called proto-orthodox groups. Many of them held to the Septuagint, which includes the books of the Deuterocanon that Martin Luther threw out of the Protestant Bible. (Something like two thirds of the NT citations of the OT follow LXX.) This is not counting the various NT and NT-related documents that were held as canonical by various groups even before Nicea, over which there was often no widespread agreement.

Shawn

I certainly wouldn't argue with anyone who said Paul was refering to scripture of some kind with the sword references, or with anyone who said he was talking about the teachings of Jesus or truth in general. I didn't mean start anything with that comment.

But as Jason said, there are a lot of hymns out there that sound like they were either written for the crusades or to justify them. I doubt if any of them actually were, but they certainly sound like it. We Christians can be a pretty scary bunch.

Leighton

Well, since the hymns in question were composed in English, they certainly were not meant to have anything to do with medieval politics. Battle Hymn of the Republic was composed during the Civil War, and the implicit meanings are clear. According to Crosswinds, the circumstances behind Onward Christian Soldiers is positively banal. (Some of their histories are pretty off-base, but this one checks out from what I can tell.)

Virtually all the hymns in question are from the 18th or 19th centuries, so their context is going to be something much more recent than the crusades.

zalm

no worries, shawn. the only thing you started was conversation.

and leighton, your comments were enlightening as akways. the history of the hymn you point to matches the ones i've read, too. i think my favorite part was where baring-gould later expressed regret for writing "onward christian soldiers," but only for the faulty rhymes. as if the rhymes were the most cringeworthy part of that song.

jvpastor

My statement about the hymns and crusades was a joke, I thought that would be understood....

It is entirely too tense around here. You guys need to embrace a "culture of life" :)

Natalie

It's all this violent war imagery that has been affecting our minds all these years!

jvpastor

I don't know what you're talking about Nat, by the way, I was thinking of blowing up an abortion clinic later this week are you busy?

I'm really caught up in this "culture of life" stuff! As soon as I get done at the shooting range i'm going to stage a protest for terri schiavo!

Viva La Revolution!

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